season 3, episode 12

Episode: 72

Welcome to Musicians Tip Jar, where we talk about musicians and money. We think every music creator needs to understand the value and power of music supervisors. I’m Chris Webb, joined by my co-host and the guy who always keeps me supervised, Dave Tamkin.

Quote of the week

“If something makes you nervous, you should probably lean into it. Jump!” - Jennie Armon

Throughout her career, Jennie has brought a rare blend of business and creative acumen to music and brand partnerships ranging from the Olympics to spots for major brands (Nike, Google, BMW, L'Oreal, M&Ms and more). She’s been instrumental in ad honors including the AMP award for “Most Effective Use of Music," AMP's overall "Best in Show" award and most recently a Clio award for "Best Use of Music in Film/Video" for Youtube's 'Life in a Day' featuring Black Pumas & Lucius.

Non-profit of the week

Folk Alliance International: Based in Kansas City, Missouri, Folk Alliance International is a non-profit organization that has been supporting folk musicians worldwide since 1989. They provide resources and opportunities to folk musicians and currently have over 3,000 members Learn More at https://folk.org/

Welcome to musicians tip jar. But we talked about musicians and money. We think every music creator needs to understand the value and power of music supervisors. I'm Chris Webb joined by my co-host and the guy who was always keeping me supervised, Dave Tamkin.

Dave Tamkin 0:31

Every step you take, every move you make I'll be watching you, Chris. Well

Chris Webb 0:37

Today, we answer the basics, like what really is a music supervisor. And what does it mean to be ready to clear your music, as well as getting into the journey of our guest, Jenny Arman from self proclaimed DJ, to big time music supervisor. Today's quote comes from Jenny, our guest. She said, music can make or break the project. You don't notice it when it's good. But you really notice it when it's terrible. And I wanted to pull one other thing from what she said today, too, which was that if something makes you nervous, you should probably lean into it.

Dave Tamkin 1:19

I went to see a Vulfpek this weekend. And they said the same thing on stage, that they were so grateful for the audience and that everything that they do is so scary. And they have found that they have had the most success when they lean into

Chris Webb 1:34

It's scary, huh? That's awesome.

Dave Tamkin 1:37

This week's nonprofit is Folk Alliance International. They're based in Kansas City, Missouri. Book Lions International is a nonprofit organization that has been supporting folk musicians worldwide since 1989. They are almost as old as you, Chris. They provide resources and opportunities to book musicians and currently have over 3000 members. Learn more at folk.org.

Chris Webb 1:59

So let's dive right into this great interview with the kind of generous Jenny Arman. I hope you get as much information out of this as we did, she lays it out so that if you're trying to get into sync as part of your revenue stream, or making it all of your revenue stream, you should listen to.

Chris Webb 2:25

Executive creator, producer, and music supervisor, Jenny Arman Thank you for joining us here

Jennie Armon 2:31

Thank you so much for having me.

Chris Webb 2:34

This is so fun for me, because I just got to see you in person last week as you came into the financial skill class at the University of Colorado. Thank you very much for doing that. Oh, yeah, it

Jennie Armon 2:46

was my pleasure. Those kids are amazing. You did a good job.

Chris Webb 2:50

Well, thanks. Yep. And they, said it had a huge impact on them. As I texted you, they were still talking about it a week later, because you made so many points about getting our music to sustain us and how much film and TV are a part of that now, in this modern music business. Before we get into that, Can we start with how you ended up as a music supervisor?

Jennie Armon 3:14

Absolutely. So it's a windy road, y'all. Um, I am from Virginia. And, you know, it's such a beautiful town that I'm from, but it, there's really not a lot to do for younger people there. So a lot of people would just have house parties. And I was DJing. These house parties finding myself just commanding the DJ booth with my CD collection. And I started to get some vinyl, but really CDs was my jam. No pun intended. And from there, I moved to New York, just knowing I wanted to live in New York. I didn't really know what but I did take some courses at George Mason University in Virginia, for media production. So I knew the television production aspect. And I knew and I took advertising classes as well. So I knew how it worked. And so when I moved to New York, one of my pretty much my first real job was at an advertising agency called publicists. And I was just a very entry level creative, helping the creative team source creative ideas, creative creative pitches, and also managing the executive creative directors as well. And kind of like being their assistant. And I just started talking about music to everybody that would listen to me all my money was going to concerts. I was handing out mix CDs Yes, I'm old. Mix CDs to people just like you should play this on your next date or this will get you dancin, or whatever. I was selling things you know like selling mix CDs as well, which is definitely illegal. And I don't do that anymore. IRS. And from that, I just started to get the name of the music girl. We didn't have a music department at that time they did shortly after, and they don't anymore. And they were doing these things called new business pitches where they're basically presenting an idea to a client and saying, Hey, Jeep, this is something we would do creatively if you hire us as your agency. So for that, they needed music on those pitches. And so I started finding music on those pitches, which was great for me, because I didn't really understand the music supervision side of clearance yet, and licensing, licensing the master and publishing all that and getting usage rights. But I did know how to just pick songs that I liked. And so I was giving them rounds and rounds of different options. And they were sticking and somebody pulled me aside and was like, hey, you know, you can do this full time, right? And I was like, why is this too fine? Like what, because it really is fun. And so I, I left, and I got a job at a music company, just answering the phones, like I really didn't care what my role was, I just wanted to see the process. And from that, I got to observe the music supervisor in house and how he would license tracks and clear them. I got to be in live sessions. So I got to see the production aspect of how that worked. I got to observe composers writing original music, so it was really rent, it really ran the gamut. As far as like all the different divisions of how music plays into specifically advertising. Some of it was a little bit more experiential. Like there's this amazing world war two exhibit in New Orleans that I helped record all of the voiceover work with which Kevin Bacon and Brad Pitt, John Goodman, but Tom Hanks really spearheaded that. So I got to meet all of these celebrities, Patricia Clarkson, Jesse Eisenberg, come in, come into the studio, record them and interact and really see how that worked. And then going to the actual museum a few years ago was just so moving, because they're all kind of telling a story of a former soldier or somebody involved in that war. And it's just amazing. As far as everybody should go to this museum.

Dave Tamkin 7:25

I've been there twice. It's unbelievable. The last two years,

Jennie Armon 7:30

yes. Okay. Well, Brad Pitt was like a really big conduit of this. He really wanted to invest in New Orleans. And so he really was like, "Get everybody on board, Gary Sinise and everybody. So I'm glad you went. Yeah, it's really, really special.

Dave Tamkin 7:45

And Gary Sinise is so connected with the Lt. Dan Band.

Jennie Armon 7:52

Yeah, I know what a hero. Yeah. And then the 4d movie is really where you hear a lot of that voiceover work as well. So that was really cool. And then, just because I had those connections at the advertising agency, I learned very quickly that it was a really big skill to offer a new business. So I was bringing in projects from that agency I was working at and they were like, well, we guess you have to produce it, even though you're an assistant like, let's move you up. So I got moved up to producer. And then I, I kind of hit a ceiling as far as being able to move up there because it was a smaller company. And so I moved to a different company, as a senior producer, then I took off real wide will right turn. And I you know, I was young at the time, I was still in my 20s, maybe early 30s. I have to look chronologically, but I wanted to make sure that I wanted to invest my time into advertising specifically because it was music and advertising. Mostly at that time in my life. It felt really vapid, a little like, "Why are we spending all this energy not helping the world.” And I had a buddy of mine that unfortunately passed away in the business. He was an amazing producer named Drew Pretzel. And one of my friends happened to be opening up a middle school and as a principal. And he's like, you know, I know you've worked with kids a lot. You know, my mom was a teacher, and, you know, would you consider opening up this middle school with me? I'm like, Okay, well, I don't have any experience doing that. He's like, "We will get you a teaching degree. And we will put you in the trenches. And so I went to Harlem, where I taught kids. I also watched the film Waiting for Superman, which is an amazing, inspiring film for educators about inner city children. And there was this one moment, and I know this is not about music, but everybody used to hear this. There were these gentlemen walking in the field and they were private prison makers. And they said that they look at black and brown boys test scores for third grade and fourth grade test scores. And they evaluate how many prison cells that they're going to make based on those scores. So it broke my heart. I was like, You know what, I'm going to try this. And so I taught for over two years, I got my teaching degree, it was an amazing experience. I very quickly burnt out because you we don't give teachers enough credit. I had pretty much Saturday's off and 31 kids otherwise, and and I just Yeah, I just crashed a little bit. I also missed being a little more creative, and working with adults a little bit more. And so I was like, alright, well, I'm gonna, I'm not ready to go back into advertising. But maybe I can help people find jobs. So I became a recruiter and a headhunter and quickly realized that that is based on my rolodex. And all of my rolodex was an advertising. So I started recruiting for advertising roles, for producers, creatives, animators, all of those things and got led into a company called tribal tribal DDB, which is part of Omnicom as an agency and what I was doing kind of like staffing, their resource management, I walked past someone's desk, and they were like, Oh, we got to pick out music for that, that pit that project. And someone else said, Oh, I don't care, just pick anything. And I just stopped in my tracks. And I was like, hold on. Um, this actually matters a lot, like music can make or break, whatever you're doing. Like, you don't notice it when it's good. But you really notice it when it's terrible. And it totally devalues all of the efforts and money.

So I immediately started finding music at this agency again. And then the company I was at prior to where I'm at now reached out, I had reached out to them to, to send me some examples of, you know, a musical style for a project. And they were like, We know that you're not really doing this. But would you consider doing this being our EP of our New York office, I knew I had the connections, I knew I had the skills I was I didn't know if I was ready to go back into music. But I decided, You know what, let's just try it. So seven years later, everything like I built this time I was employee number one. I built it to 10 people made us kind of like a staple in the industry, hired internal composers, producers freelance roster, put our name on the map as far as marketing goes, and just branding with the other partners there. And it was an amazing experience, and great people great talent. Cut to now I've been at a company called squeaky clean squeaky space II space clean for one month. And I was looking at all of the numbers. I'm like a very data and numbers driven person. I feel like there's a lot of insight into that. And I was working for a company with one office 10 people, squeaky clean has five offices. 50 people to including two are in Australia, which is amazing. So it's an international company. And they cover the entire landscape of soup to nuts. So they do original composition, music, supervision, experiential, but they also do all post sound design and mix vo record ADR recording, we had Emily Blunt and the other day. And so there's always things happening and amazing amount of resources. And I just thought, you know what, I'm ready for the big dogs. Let's go. Because, you know, this is over the span of what 15 to 20 years of work. So I felt like this was the right move and, and I'm really excited to be there. Within all of that tucked away was music supervision. I really got my feet wet with music supervising my own projects. By reaching out to new and upcoming directors, I would look at let's say Sundance Film Festival for films and this is for anybody that wants to get in music supervision. I was looking at those films that were getting into the Sundance Film Festival. And the the thing that they won't tell you about that is that they might not have cleared those tracks in order to get into that Film Festival.

Chris Webb 14:46

Oh, wow.

Jennie Armon 14:47

They scramble and then they clear them. Not everybody some people have their stuff together but other people do not. And that's okay like they want to put Elvis in there. This is a real story. And then they're gonna try to clear it after. So that was actually my first experience was licensing Elvis, and a few other tracks for an amazing filmmaker named Charlotte, Charlotte wells. She had such a beautiful film called Blue Christmas. And that was my first film that I was able to do by myself. And then from there just kept lists and the attention detail for all of my contacts within publishing and masters. Domestically, internationally, West Coast, East Coast, and really, like had that list organized for any needs that clients would need. And now I'm doing a lot more advertising as well. But I do love indie films, it is just such a joy to have a slice of life in there, especially short films, that it just has brought me a lot of joy. And within advertising, like, I can give one example of just an amazing project I worked on. It's kind of like hard to explain, but basically, Ridley Scott created a film called Life in a Day 2010. That was in 2010. Life in a Day, Ridley Scott was commissioned by YouTube originals to put out Life in a Day 2020. And if we know what happened in 2020, it was really fun for everybody all over the world. But the premise is, essentially, they send out these cameras to everyone that's going to be filming, and they all record at the same time, same day, all over the world.

So it's an amazing film that you get to see life, death, love, you know, breakups, you name it, it's just the full gamut. And this was actually the trailer for YouTube originals. So they wanted because there was so much diversity within the film to have two very contrasting artists to perform and cover the track strangers by the case. And so I made an entire spreadsheet as far as all these different artists, all walks of life, ages, genders, locations, genres. I spoke with all of their representation got ballpark numbers for everybody. And at the end, after all, you I mean, like any name you can think of for high profile people we were, we were consulting with. But at the end of the day, they picked two bands called Black Pumas based out of Austin, Texas, and Lucius based out of LA and I happen to have managed Lucius, and another band called Snow mine while I was at that very first job born out of my mind as a receptionist. So I was really, I was starting to promote shows at that time when I was younger, because again, I was really bored. Like I wanted to be challenged. So I was learning how to promote shows how to get people out how to get more coverage, how to go on poor how to manage these bands and get them opportunities. And I told them first and like I was just like, I don't know what I'm doing. But I do have connections and I know how to make things happen. So like let's let's try. So it was really just kind of bringing them opportunities. And Lucius is a very, I'm very close with them. And they are incredibly talented. If you guys have not heard them, they have a twin vocal, and it is just goose bump inducing. They are incredibly talented, and they've come so far, and they regularly open for brandy Carlisle or shakey graves or you name it. So they're just killing it. And I'm so proud of them. So this was during pandemic, we recorded black Pumas and Lucius and based on the the swag and everything, you know, they were able to keep going with their careers because at that time, as we know, nobody was touring. Nobody buys music anymore. So it was really tricky. It was really cool to be able to have them cover that and there's all these behind beside behind the scenes footage as far as them recording it and launching it and that ended up winning a Clio award for the best use of music supervision for the Clio Awards, which is was so exciting, amazing. Yeah, yeah, and it's just you know, these awards like whatever they don't really matter but when they're it's when it's surrounding your peers and they are deciding this for you it's just it's such a good way to feel all of that work

Chris Webb 19:26

was worth some recognition, which is good.

Jennie Armon 19:29

Yeah. And it was uploaded to all the DSPS that digital streaming platforms so you can catch it stranger's by Lucius and black Pumas on Spotify or Apple music or whatever and and that's very rewarding to to know that. A piece of what I've done is out there forever.

Chris Webb 19:49

And I love that story. And I love also the whole progress of your career and how much you've just followed and weaved through all All of these different routes to get to where you are based on what you felt like you wanted, right? Like based on what you you wanted to do with your time and you said yourself that you wanted to be challenged. I mean, that attitude, I feel like that hunger is such a great way to drive your career.

Jennie Armon 20:18

Totally Yes. And I know that a lot of people can get kind of stuck, doing something and stagnant. I actually thrive with change. I am a lifer when it comes to long term, like working at places now, which I'm proud of. And I learned that from teaching to that, like you got to, if you say you're gonna do something, you got to do it. Do it with kids. So, yeah, it's been good. And I do think that it's important to push yourself out of your comfort zone. If something makes you feel nervous, you should lean into it most likely, because it's just your body reacting and saying, I don't know, I don't know if I can do this. But you got to just be just hold your breath, jump.

Dave Tamkin 21:02

When you said that you were kind of waiting to see if you wanted to go back into music after seven years. What was keeping you back? Well, what were your first thoughts?

Jennie Armon 21:13

I think advertising is an art. And I don't think a lot enough people give it credit. It takes so many people and so many ideas. I always told my friends in advertising, I feel like there should be like a digital graveyard of all the amazing ideas that never got thumbs up, you know? And it was really just this question of like, do I want to be in more of a social servant role where I can see direct change from people's lives? Or do I want to infuse creativity, and be a social servant to artists and composers instead? So it was really just that kind of, where do I want to put all of my eggs and energy in order to have the biggest impact that I can have in the world, and my community. And I know that that's lofty to say, because, you know, even amazing social workers out there only get to touch a few 100 families, you know, so it's, the world obviously is so big, but I do feel like we are here for a reason. I feel like our time is credibly limited. I think we all learned that during the pandemic as well. And throughout our lives. And I just want to make sure that each day that I'm providing something to give to the world,

Chris Webb 22:38

we will we're here talking about every day is exactly that, like the power that you have. And what you get rewarded financially often, is from how much you give, right? It's about how much you can give to the world how much value you bring to the world is almost always reflected back in in both happiness and and financial. You know, there's there's both I mean, you're speaking to the right crowd when you say that.

Jennie Armon 23:03

Good, my people.

Chris Webb 23:05

So let me let's get into this a little bit. So for those who don't really understand, can we try to give as simple of a definition of what a music supervisor is.

Jennie Armon 23:15

So a music supervisor is someone that is clearing tracks for whether the client already knows what they want, or they have no idea you're sourcing those tracks or you're clearing a direct track. Like I mentioned with Blue Christmas that the director already knew that she wanted to license specific tracks with Elvis, can you define clearing, Clearing means that you're going to research within ASCAP and BMI and see second all of the publishing rights organizations who have which rights registered. So you are searching within several databases, you're finding the Masters holders, and that can range up to 25 people, or just women, which is my favorite, or also publishing as well, which again, depending on if it's a hip hop artists, if it's been sampled, you're ranging from, again 25 people maybe even more, to one publishing holder. And a lot of these publishing houses are larger organizations that houses all of them like Sony, like Warner Chappell or Warner Music, and so on. And then the masters are also owned by these big companies, hypnosis, you name it. The primary wave has a hand as well. So my job is to constantly kind of know who's the contacts and be able to reach out to them very quickly because as a music supervisor, you have a very short amount of Time's usually amount of time to clear things and get them out the door.

Dave Tamkin 25:06

Do you know if hypnosis has a statistically higher placement level than other companies that named hypnosis?

Jennie Armon 25:14

Good question. I think they have. I mean, I think Sony is probably one of the biggest rights holders. But hypnosis is getting up there. Like they're being very selective, but grabbing a lot of catalogs. And it's HIPG. And OS is it's always interesting to see these companies kind of like stem out, merge move, and you got to kind of always kind of be in touch with who is where?

Chris Webb 25:48

Yeah, is this is this kind of industry in the world of, you know, executive producers and music supervisors where you see a lot of people changing roles frequently?

Jennie Armon 25:58

No, actually, it's the opposite. I see people within I mean, there there are, there is constant movement. But the people that have been there kind of at the top, they stay there for life. Like I was looking into working on the McMasters law or publishing side label side of things. And for me, it felt like too safe. And they will be very angry me for saying that. But I think that the actual production aspect is is a joy for me. When you're getting a brief you have 10 days to deliver and ship, you know, that is so much more exciting, versus people reaching out and saying, Hey, can I license your track, like, that just seems a little bit too easy for me. And again, they work their butts off to do their jobs. But it just I wanted to be challenged in a different way. And I do think it is an incredibly magical experience to have a light to be involved in production.

Chris Webb 27:02

And so as a music supervisor, you're often having to juggle the middle ear, like the middle person between the artists who who probably cherishes their work, not always right. Sometimes it's it's made for this specific film a TV kind of purpose, but often you have the artists with their vision, and then the directors or the creators with their vision, right? Do you find yourself having to try to balance out these artistic visions and try to negotiate what makes things work best,

Jennie Armon 27:33

all the time. You are working with so many personalities, sometimes very, very big personalities, very, very chilled personalities. And you're setting expectations, you're being incredibly like communicative with clients, you know, for instance, these are ballpark figures, they are not formalized yet. They're not finalized yet, you know, and so that's one client. And then with right with the rights holders being like, this is what I'm thinking for how much it will be what do you think? Or how much would you charge for this? And really just working to keep like that rubber band? Tight?

Chris Webb 28:17

Yeah, I like that analogy.

Jennie Armon 28:19

I think, whether an artist wants to tell you or not, I think they love everything that they do. Even, you know, because otherwise they wouldn't put it out there. Right. Now, another aspect to music supervision is also the original music aspect. So if there's original composition, you're working with a composer, or you're grabbing tracks from libraries, let's say, and maybe tweaking those, and you're also doing the score production supervision, sometimes where you're recording an orchestra in Budapest or whatever. And then you might be working with the sound designer, who's kind of putting all of that texture on it, or you might be working with the mixer to make sure it all blends together, too. So there's different music supervisors who have their hands in different things. But if you're really running a smaller production, you might be wearing all of those hats.

Chris Webb 29:08

Wow, you know, we talk a lot about knowing your value. And in this industry, I think it's tough. It's, it's, it's a little bit more confusing. I think it's like when you're getting a show or you're getting an event or or you're performing we tend to have a rate. But with this kind of thing, it depends on what it's going on how, you know, how long is it going to air for and where's it going to air right? Like how, how do people decide what their value is, as an artist or as a creator? In this kind of medium?

Jennie Armon 29:38

Well, this is for the artists, okay, so basically, but this is integrated into labels and publishers too. So there's different tiers of usage. If we're talking about specifically advertising, there is different time lengths, so they might license it for 12 weeks, maybe like one One broad broadcast run, or they might license it for one year, or they might license it in perpetuity. So you're going to charge the most for forever, which is in perpetuity, and then you got these levels of media. So where is it going to live? Is it going to just live online? Is it going to be geo gated, just to the US only, or just social media. I have heard that tick tock is actually being charged more now. Because people are putting so much weight into tick tock for just receiving and the usage of those users. So that's just a heads up as an artist, that you can probably charge a little bit more if it is for tick tock, but clients are still learning and being educated on that broadcast, which is going to be like a worldwide in perpetuity broadcast. And all or all media will just say that broadcast is the most expensive usage that you can find. And then there's a level of exclusivity. So is it fully exclusive, meaning you can't license this track for anything else? Or for the duration? Or is it exclusive to category, so if it's for Samsung, just for electronics, or is it non exclusive, and that's going to be the cheapest option for them. So if it's a 12 week run non exclusive online, only, you're looking at something that's not very expensive as the license, but more that those different tiers go up with the usage, that's where you can see, as an artist, I can charge more for that, Oh, you want exclusivity for that, boom, I'm going to add this amount more.

So it's really just kind of like looking at all of it holistically. And not selling yourself short being like, okay, $5,000 for everything, no. Exclusive forever, like think about that you can never license that again. Right? It's gone. Right? So and there's other another term called work for hire, which is not typical ever within like major labels. But sometimes for smaller artists that have created something, that company might purchase it. And if they're going to do that, make sure you build in a lot of money, because you're going to that's gone, they're going to own that afterwards. So it's really protecting your IP, and making sure that you're valuing it. And being friends with an entertainment lawyer is really helpful, too. I have consulted a few artists as far as just like, hey, we can't get to this amount. Like they're saying this. And I was like, alright, well if they want exclusivity at in this, you know, so it's really just like, it's looking at it overall, if you're a band that has zero followers, or like 1000 followers, you're going to be charging a lot less versus Bebe Rexha, or Willie Nelson, you know, just so just keep that in mind.

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