EPISODE 36

Co-write Your Way into the Music Business with

Daphne Willis

This episode we were privileged to have the super talented Daphne Willis on to talk about getting the most out of songwriting, co-writing and how to turn those songs into assets with placements and sync licensing.

0:00:00.6: Welcome to the show that explores the methods and strategies on rocking the financial side of your music business with over 40 years combined experience, here are your hosts Chris Webb, and Dave Temkin.

0:00:0.19: Welcome to musicians tip jar where we talk about musicians and money. Here we remind ourselves that there is no I love, but there is a week. I'm your host, Chris Webb joined by my co host and the guy who wants to trap me and I trust fall exercise. Dave Tamkin

0:00:00.36:Chris, you were looking extra tall that day. And I just didn't measure correctly as far as how far to stand back. I thought you were gonna, you know, land right by me, but I miscalculated.

0:00:00.49: I apologize. Well, today we are finishing up our interview with Anthony Millis and we're going to discuss what to do with your songs and how to squeeze the most out of your assets. All that right after this.

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0:00:02:36: now so make sure that you rate subscribe to this podcast leave us a comment go to our website, check out all the resources in the discounts that we have collected for you. While you're there, sign up for our free weekly newsletter and get connected to other related articles to help you keep up on your finance side of your music business. We got two quotes today. First quote is from Joe Safford. Songwriting is an art unto itself, not to be confused with performing and the second quote is from Daphne Will's co writing is the key to getting into the world of music sync and placements business. And she says that in today's interview, but it's just so powerful because I think a lot of people say how do I get started in placements? And I think she just answered that question. For a lot of people. It's important that we give it a little bit of a spotlight. With the second half of our interview today with Debbie Willis. We are discussing what strategies and tools she feels are important for all of us songwriters to utilize. And why it's important to bug your PR o's and push to get all you can out of their services. So let's go ahead and dive right back in to our interview with that news.

0:00:03:52: So your own self project, obviously like writing for yourself. One of the main things I would recommend here is that if you are collaborating or CO writing for your own project, let your co writers know ahead of time, what you're trying to do and what you're trying to say. Have some references. No do some work on yourself and figure out what you do want to say with your project. Like no, maybe look at your artists platform a little bit more from a business standpoint. And think about who your fans are, what they like, what they don't like what they listen to and send some references like that revolve around that. You can really craft your brand in a really cool way. If you think about just some basic things like that. Even thinking about what you like and when you listen to is like really, really valuable as well. But when I like like my fans listen to stuff that I don't like my fans listen to stuff that I may or may not like my artists platform is very like specific to certain vibe. And like lyrical content, less about the like definitely has some things, some things to do with the production and the style and the genre. But for the most part, it's more about the energy and the mood and the lyrical content revolving around self empowerment and vulnerability. And, and usually if I tick a few boxes, like they like it, you know what I mean? And I want that for them. Like I want to give them that as an artist. It's very important that we have that relationship with our fans and know them you know in that way so this is what I was talking about. And this is a term that I've kind of coined, like the lane thing. These are Academy 145 terms and this is called being a triple or Triple P and it's just being prepared, being present and being proactive. So you get prepared for the session, whether it's reading a brief, getting an email ahead of time being like hey guys, what are we writing for what you guys want to do for the session? If you're writing for your own thing Hey guys, here's kind of my vibe for my project. Here's some references to check out ahead of time. Boom, like way better session like already sessions going to be like, way, way better. And then the second one being present. Show up you know, talk about yourself but you know don't bring your you know luggage trolley in from you know, your bite with your axe from last week. And you know, ask for relationship advice in the first 20 minutes of the session. Just be present in practice, but also be open and be willing to go new places in your session with people and expect the same from them and have fun. Third is to be proactive. And this This is more like after the session and I always say like oh great, you wrote a song now what? So you write a song it's like okay, so what can you do with the song now? If it's if it's for you, not for your project, so how do you seek opportunities? Who are your relationships with that are really going to help you bring more to the table for your collaborators, and expect that from them too. We all I mean, half the battle is on the back end, getting the songs worked, making sure the songs that I'm writing with people are getting pitched and placed and making sure like the people that I'm working with know that I like didn't forget about the song that I wrote with them like a few months ago that it is actually like being pitched and included in things and they do the same for me. You know, I of course have written songs that are like sitting in a folder somewhere from like three years ago. But then sometimes something pops up and it's like, oh, I have a song for this and I'll remember it and go back through which is another reason to be organized. Because then you never know when that's going to happen and you need to find the lyrics or the IPI registration code or whatever. Very important. So yeah, so this is just going through back through the being a Triple P here. Familiarize yourself with your co writers asked for references or said references and set that intention, you know, what are we writing for? What do you guys feel like doing today? Do you have any specific projects or I have a specific project that's urgent?

0:00:08:53: Or I set the session up because I You guys are the perfect people to do this thing with and I've chosen you to do this with and they would obviously know that ahead of time. Stay open new things. Take emotional and creative chances. Be vulnerable state here is another thing like I think for my own like intents and purposes I historically like when I first started co writing would get in my own way, like on like a subconscious level. You know, like get really frustrated or feel uncomfortable with a lyric or a vibe and the more I did it, it's like, it doesn't matter like also like I have songs that are terrible that maybe some of them are two I think they're terrible and then they end up getting placed so you know, who cares and also you don't have to release everything that you sit down. Not everything gets released in that everything is going to become like I feel like it's such a vulnerable space so like you feel so exposed. But the more you take those chances and like experiment with things, the more you're like, oh the world did and then everything's fine. Like I did this weird thing with like, no money, like the sun came up and I'm still the same person. You know?

0:00:10:25: I think it also goes back to that network that you create because even being on zoom with four people that I'd never met before you made it such a safe place. And even if someone really didn't like your idea, it might have triggered something that they could use for something else. So I like that word. Yeah, we call that flows. So even your insecurities that you bring to the table would actually work out. So you know, I think it also has to do with your network because you do create that space which is very important.

0:00:10:58: Well, thanks for that. I think also just like the people that I'm lucky enough to like work with all the time are like super have been doing it the same amount of time. So this is the whole thing. It's like, where do you get this fucking information? Who is like doing you know what I mean? Like it's really hard to access the information and the people to like, share this to share these things. Because I don't even know why I feel like the people who make you know, who are lucky enough to get farther along I think, either don't think about it. Or they're just I mean, it's I guess it is also the fact that it's a lot of creatives who are probably overwhelmed with creative work, but they're just not really thinking about it either way. Can we are it's great, and I'm super excited to share it. Follow through on the song. The oh the mix notes is my favorite part and I thought I thought this was super fun Dave I think maybe you enjoyed this too because my favorite thing is the mix notes because you like write the song and you get everything down in the session you know the recording down, usually like up so a session usually is anywhere from like, I've heard sessions that are two hours and we're done. And I've had sessions that are like seven or eight hours. And sometimes you have to go back and finish things later and that's fine too. Or I'll say if you just put the vocal at home and I'll send it to you later if you have to go but the mix the mix notes are fine. It's kind of like the first draft first actual finished draft from the producer that is sent out before the song is like finalized and submitted and registered. And it's kind of like the rough draft. So then you can go through and make some notes and mix notes basically selected thing levels need to come up or anyone more distortion or more delay or you can't hear this and you want to hear that or you need less bars. And this transition you want to make some tweaks and in the in the camp the way we run it as we get the we get the first rough draft about a week after the last day, which gives myself and the producer time to like because when we're in the session where when we're in the session for the Academy camps, we're very much explaining things as we're going as we're doing the writing. So there's less like when I'm in a room with me and producer and another writer, the producer is sitting here just making the track and producing out the track and I'm sitting there writing the song with myself or with the other person, depending on how many people are there. So in the camps, the producers don't have the time and the space to just be doing the track. So this gives them time to do the track. Then they send the track and we all get a few days to make notes and we get back together on the last day and then go over all the final notes. And then they make the the tweets and send it out which is super fun. And kind of my favorite thing about it. And then yeah, we talked about this to create opportunities for the song which just means like register your songs, organize your catalogue, be active and proactive and in the opportunities you seek for yourself as a as a writer and as a producer and as an artist. Don't expect anything to just fall in your lap and don't expect anything anybody to do anything else for you as they well.

0:00:14:44: You talked about what you're doing. When you get your own masters by doing a cover of somebody else's song. That's been something that I've discussed with a few people about what the right processes and getting permission to use that their publishing, for free around mastering.

0:00:15:05: Usually, so there's a company called hair at the Harry Fox agency which handles a lot of those. So I would contact the Harry Fox Fox agency and tell them that you want to release a cover and they'll get you the paperwork and it's just a simple form that you fill out if you're putting it out I believe it's like thing with your distributor so like if you're even if you're with like TuneCore or like just an indie distributor they should have when you submit the song to the distributor to like release it, there'll be some sort of correlating information between Harry Fox and the distributor that will that will navigate all of that if you had a licensing placement for a cover. They might have like a threshold of a fee. So like they're not going to approve anything under a certain amount of money. And if it's an actual licensing fee, you'd have to go to the publisher, so whoever actually had the publishing for that composition would be who you needed to get that approved with

0:00:16:10: a lot of what we've talked about in the class so far is about how you can start. And I think that that is often the hardest part, right? I mean, obviously there's a lot to learn. And then But then there's also just like that aspect of how how you get your first placement or get yourself started.

0:00:16:26:And you know, we've talked a lot about how there's really no wrong way to do that.

0:00:16:31:But we're just curious, because, you know, I think that you probably have a pretty unique one, too, like what was your first step into the placement roiling the sink?

0:00:16:40: My first well, they kind of go hand in hand so I mean to me the the way you get into the music industry is by CO writing. And it's just by collaborating with people where you're talking because we talk about all of this stuff when we're in the room. Whether it's virtual or in person. We when we go right we're like talking about our business stuff, you know, it's like a it's a creative session, but it's also a lot of like, hey, like, Oh, I've just started working with these people. They're really great. Oh would introduce you. Or like hey, would you do know anybody over here? What do you think about this company? They just send me an email like I have a buddy who's over there. They said, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like you shouldn't work with them, like or whatever. So I would really, really lean hard into the CO writing like however that looks. It's sometimes you know, tenuous but it's it always pays off and there's always something you learn out of out of every session even if it wasn't like, my best or my favorite. I learned something in that session. And or made a connection or found out about a company that was potentially somebody I should reach out to or get in touch with. So I would definitely say leaning into the CO writing is hands down. I mean, that's how I basically, you know, got my start was through collaborating with people and making music with other people. My first placement was from the label. And it was like after I had already left and then basically when I was in Nashville and I was independent for a while I was like CO writing, co writing, co writing co writing, like amassing a catalog and then my PRL who I definitely recommend like I recommend you guys really lean heavy on in into your PR o's and like, bug them and pressure them and be heard because they're so saturated like with us, and it's hard to get a response sometimes, but if you just like hey, hey, I'm just checking back in, you know, you could do that a million times and still send you could copy and paste the same email and I've literally had had different can do that. I actually went into my PRL and ASCAP in Nashville, and sat in the lobby a few days in a row until somebody would come down and take a meeting with me. And then when they finally came down, I was like, hey Ari, I'm definitely I'm gonna sound like acted like I had just gotten there. Like, no biggie. But that's literally like sometimes what you have to do, just to be heard because there's so many people trying to get in there but they can create opportunities for you. They can introduce you to people will set you up with CO writes. They have mixer events, they pour billions of dollars every year and aspiring writer programs, they make their money off of our money. So it behooves them to invest in their songwriters, especially the ones who are super proactive and aggressive and assertive with them, who show up and are like, Hey, I'm here. I'm trying to work for you. What are you trying to do for me? You know, and a lot of people on the business side when they see that they will definitely respond in a way that's more productive for you. So they threw me in some programs in Nashville, and that's how I got my Sony deal.

0:00:20:22: What was the name of that for some?

0:00:20:25: Do what you want was the one at Vanguard and then and then I at Sony, they put me in they have sent camps. So there's all these sync writing camps and they put me in a camp and then I had a song called do it like this. That is like the gift that keeps giving them it just keeps getting placed and all this stuff. It's amazing.

0:00:20:42: They use that on dancing, Alister, sir

0:00:20:45: eight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And So You Think You Can Dance and it's in like Zumba classes and gin. If you focus on YouTube it there's a line dance in like Korea and in Asia and there's all these live dancing classes doing this specific life and someone needs to like do it like this. It's pretty amazing. Pretty funny. That is in the bullpen. We'll play it at the end of the podcast. It just won't

0:00:21:08 be like 1010 sixteenths of a penny maybe. So funny with the screams Do you know what though? I will say the more music you put out, the more videos you put out on every platform. It adds up. It does add up after like 12 years of like putting music out independently like I actually get like in advance from a digital distributor and stuff now, which is like crazy, does actually add up. So

0:00:21:41: can we talk a little bit about that? I mean, obviously that numbers but we like to talk a lot about diversification when it comes to God. Artists and just kind of give us an idea of like the different avenues of income stream that you rely on.

0:00:21:55: Yeah, well there's there's also something I did want to mention before that goes with this really well is there was a new royalty company called the MLC the mechanical license collective and that's the new big with the music Cares Act. It's the new like ASCAP is the new mechanical royalty very much like serves a function of like the cross between ASCAP and SoundExchange and they are paying out like I see them on my statements from Sony. So that's another revenue stream. And you should absolutely diversify and be involved in all of those revenue streams, even if it's just pennies right now, like the more of those you have to look at it like a bunch of buckets collecting pennies and the more buckets you have collecting pennies, the more pennies you have, and they do actually add up after a while. So and then also looking at the difference between as an artist you're publishing and your master and making sure that you're even within that, like I've gotten placements for my artists stuff that are less and more sparse, but it does happen. So you don't want to just like oh, it's specific, so I don't want to have a pitch. You should always have your masters pitch and always put them in for things. Where you can. But I would Yeah, and I would say definitely make sure you're monetizing on every platform. You know, even even YouTube if you just do simple videos like live stream videos or whatever you do on there. Just keep making the content. Just keep putting it out

0:00:23:43: outside of sync. Is there other things that you that you make a priority for income streams?

0:00:23:49: Yes. I mean, live shows are are definitely coming back. I also did keynote speaking which is like amazing and something that is really like that kind of fell into like a few years ago and has become like a really wonderful cross section of my passions as a as a human and my music. So that's been really amazing. Live performance is definitely like an asset and a revenue stream. Merchandising is definitely an asset and a revenue stream. The merchandising game is strong, especially online so I actually had a fulfillment company in Nashville, but they kept messing up orders. So I just had them ship all my stuff to me. I bought a label printer. I am on Shopify, I have a Shopify account, I have inventory and like literally just take photos and like people buy things and I just send it out of my second closet. And it's amazing and super rewarding because I get to put little notes and then wrap things up and send them to people and inertia interact with fans who are like really into what I'm doing and want to engage with me and buy things you know, and like that's another really big revenue stream that I'm continuing to develop and it's very, like business eat but and it's because it's like brand new, but it's super cool. And it's so fun and it makes me feel really great that people connect to the music that I'm putting out that much where they would go to my website and buy something you know

0:00:25:34: Yeah, that's awesome. It's very it to Franco style right

0:00:25:36: where it's so funny. Isn't it? Totally what that said I have like these little cards that say like thank you appreciate you and their little seeds. So you can like literally bury them in your yard and it'll grow into like a flower bunch.

0:00:25:52: Oh, that's a great. Thank you so much for giving us this time. Can you give us the best way to reach out?

0:00:26:00: Yeah, my email is daphnemgmt@gmail.com. And we definitely have tamps coming up virtually. Thank you guys so much for having me

0:00:26:19: this last episode, you know, you brought up a lot of doo doo do's and this episode, we're bringing up a lot of PPBS

0:00:26:31: because we were really adults around here,

0:00:26:35: and this also ensures that you don't edit out last conversation but to do this otherwise. Now this will make sense. I love that when she said the three P's, be prepared, present and proactive in everything you're going to do, especially when you're taking up someone else's time is to be prepared, present and proactive. And knowing her as long as I have she always shows up on the three P's.

0:00:27:03: And she talked a lot about what to do with your songs, which I think is one of those things that you should build as a habit, right, keeping an organized, always knowing who you worked with for each song having a well laid out on some sort of spreadsheet so that you can make sure that you don't end up getting an opportunity and not remembering certain details that would stop you from being able to get that placement or that opportunity.

0:00:27:31: And part of that organization is having that contract signed that you brought up last episode, because it moves things along faster when you already had that done and you need to move quickly. You don't need to go back and use some of the sites.

0:00:27:45: She also talked a lot about how she keeps everything catalog for herself and we're going to offer here in a sec are a free resource that we've created that I use personally for my music catalog. I'm just gonna give it out so that everyone can use it as a starter spot for themselves. When they're starting to organize all of their assets. This website

0:00:28:09:you know everything we're giving away, can be a pretty fun game. For season number two, maybe every time you say assets, someone has to do its job or something healthy for themselves.

0:00:28:25: 20 Jumping Jacks another thing she brought up that she really leaned into was you need to take advantage of your PR role. So of course Performing Rights Organization is who collects the money from the back end of your placements and any of the safe deals that you might get. So it's not just that that's their job. It's that they will actually work for you. And once he was making the point, but there is really important because I think a lot of us, we don't really engage in them. We sign up for one. And we don't really do much other than that, and maybe we list our songs as we write them. But which is also critical, but it's important that you see that they have a lot of connections and resources that are free for you and that are designed to help their members gain exposure and opportunity. So let's move into our do's and don'ts and reflect a little bit on all the quality we just got from this episode. Do you make the extra effort to connect and lean on your PR O's, they are there for you.

0:00:29:33: And if you don't have a payroll do sign up for payroll both as an artist and as publisher.

0:00:29:40: And that is critical because if you don't you know they're gonna get some of the money you could have gotten. So you have to have two separate accounts. Don't get sloppy with your organization of your songs. That can happen really quickly especially if you're like Daffy Willis and you write nine and a couple days it's it's it's one of those things where you have to make it a habit. You have to build that habit and